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Golf type 17 Group 4

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1 Golf type 17 Group 4 on Fri Oct 15, 2010 9:23 am

Jeremy


Hi Guys,

As said in the welcome section I think it is more appropriate to talk about my project(s) here.

My project is rebuilding my Golf (I say type 17 cause I assume that both the golf MK 1 and Eabbit are both type 17.... ?? Is any body sure of that?)

Anyway, my type 17 was originally a 37kw LX which got a little out of hand (I just wanted a respray..)
and has grown into my trackday car.

Having been powered by a 1,3 ltr (80 hp!!) to 1.8 16V (KR) to G60 (PG) and now a 2.0 16V (ABF) I have decided that I want to enter in the FIA youngtimer class. Eligible cars are cars that heve been homologated up to the 31st of december 1981.

Guess what... the golf 16S was homologated the 1st of december 1981!!! perfect... he he he Wink

So, the planned specs;

-type 17 body (gloss black)yet to be seam welded
-all steel panels according to homologation
-All original glass as per homologation (green tint)
-Apex Racing adjustable coilovers, aluminium bodied as the original rally type 17's
-Seam welded wishbones
-Scirocco 16V rear axle
-PU bushes
-Scirocco 16V driveshafts
-OMP rollcage
-AP Lockheed 4pot Group4 youngtimer calipers (like the escorts)
-dual master brake ciliders with balancebar adjustable
-supersprint 60mm 80dB racing exhaust
-VDO instruments
-1600cc "H" block
-Oettinger 16S head
-FM 5speed gearbox (200mm clutch)

and so on.... (Pfff a lot of stuff)

Took the head to work today to test it for cracks by fluorecent dye penetrant testing, which was messy but came up negative. (negative is good!!)

But topics are nothing without pictures so I will post a bunch tomorrow night.

Note; this project will not go very fast as I am busy building another project (type 19 with S3 running gear and TDI/TFSI engine and lots of other goodies)

Deviding money and attention between two projects is not very smart.

Greetz,

Jeremy

2 Re: Golf type 17 Group 4 on Fri Oct 15, 2010 11:55 am

RubensRoc


Jeremy wrote:which got a little out of hand (I just wanted a respray..) and has grown into my trackday car.

Funny thing about this statment....this is what got me into trouble Very Happy

By the way, I have a new 60mm Supersprint exhaust but would rather use the 50mm supersprint. Do you know if Supersprint sells these in europe? I've looked here in the states and I was told they no longer make the sport exhaust for the Scirocco.

~Ruben

3 Re: Golf type 17 Group 4 on Sun Oct 17, 2010 8:28 am

Jeremy


Hey Ruben, you could try RS trade here in Holland. I'm sure Rolf can give you the info you need and he has a lot in stock. I got mine from these guys.

http://www.rstrade.nl

Anyhow, some pics of what gets me into trouble.

Just arrived at the track and doing some prep work



Busy track days



Leaving the pit lane



Just gave the car a wash



Still on the BBS RS and RM wheels (15" x 6,5J)



Clips on the tailgate the same as the orignal 16S rally version



Glass fibre dash which I wanted to get flocked like a rally car, but gonna change the dash completly. And the raised gear lever will also go (but does work great) as I will be going back to rod shifting as per homologation.



Next evolution



The pump which bolts on to the front of the block



Intermediate shaft with extra gear for dry sump pump



Dry sump pan



Crack testing of the new head



Well thats it for now, I'm not that much of a photographer. But I'll post some more at a later date.

greetz,

Jeremy

4 Re: Golf type 17 Group 4 on Sun Oct 17, 2010 4:33 pm

RubensRoc


Jeremy,

You guys have a nice track to let you wash your cars there!

What are you using for a short block and what rpm will you be running at? I'm wondering what specification valve and camshaft you will be using for racing.

I just bought a VWMS 6 speed conversion and I'm in process of looking into an 02A....just not sure what ring and pinion to go with. What gearbox and ratio's where you using on the track.

~Ruben

5 Re: Golf type 17 Group 4 on Sun Oct 17, 2010 5:54 pm

romaingirardlamamy

avatar
Hi jeremy
I love the dry sump
Where did you get it?
How was made The intermediate shaft ?
Are staying on 1600 cc ?
Nice little toy you got there

Romain

6 Re: Golf type 17 Group 4 on Mon Oct 18, 2010 3:15 am

Jeremy


No I don't wash the car at the track although it is a very nice track. Nice undulations through the dunes.



That was at my garage where I washed my car



Hated working on the floor so I got myself a hoist last summer.

I got the dry sump set from a guy here in holland. It comes from a F3 car, like a ralt or something like that. I recently ordered a new drive gear for the pump (not the one on the shaft) but it comes from pace products in the uk. Brabham made the same way back when, and Bertils in US also make the same (or made)

What revs I am planning.... eh, High. cams will have to be custom I suppose. Valves sizes are not specified in the homologation only the number of inlet and exhaust vlaves per cilinder. The fueling is also not specified. So when the time comes (read $$$) I will discuss this with the tuner. But I would really like to eventually move from the carbs to a kugelfischer system. But all together will be a major investment and while I am busy with other stuff put on the back burner.

The gearbox that originally came with the ABF engine is the 02A CDA

3.300 1.945 1.308 1.029 0.837 3.68

But replaced that with the 02A CAW

3.778 2.118 1.458 1.034 0.838 3.647

Which came from a corrodo G60 (PG) and the flywheel is a lot lighter than the ABF flywheel

What I'm planning is first tun a "stock" oettinger 1600E but running on carbs, 40 dellortos's.
I still have to fetch 2 motors that I bought from guy in Norway. That should be in November or December as he also works international and it never works out when both of us are home at the same time. He's in Equatrioal guinee at the moment and when he gets back I will be in Brazil.

The parts to build an oettinger engine at the moment will be put on hold for quite a while as I am busy with another project which takes priority and should be completed by next summer.

Poor little golf collecting dust for the time being.



The other project (type 19 syncro)

7 Re: Golf type 17 Group 4 on Mon Oct 18, 2010 5:02 am

romaingirardlamamy

avatar
Jeremy,

Those two motors you say you got to fetch
Are they complete oettinger one?
Which mean you ll have three head !!!
For the cams you could have them regrinded or welded then regrinded
Ruben had that done and I m think off it too
With a 1600 cc you can easy rev up to 9000 rpms
With the right bits
You might want to check the big valves kit group buy we have regarding the valves

Romain

8 Re: Golf type 17 Group 4 on Mon Oct 18, 2010 6:14 am

Jeremy


Yes i saw the big valve group buy, but that's not for me. As I don't have the cash, after just buying the other two oettinger engines (apparantly one is rebuilt and one has a scrap bottem end) and gonna get my other car reprayed in Februari I have no cash left.
Plus that as this new head has yet to be drilled for the valve guides possibly can put in any size I want.

If you are interested in my other build you can see that on the vw vortex.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5058266-2006-2.0-16V-TFSI-(-FSI)-into-1988-Syncro-GT-to-haldex-build-somewhere-in-Holland

9 Re: Golf type 17 Group 4 on Mon Oct 18, 2010 10:08 am

RubensRoc


Jeremy,

If you're going with carbs, which intake manifold will you be using?

~Ruben

10 Re: Golf type 17 Group 4 on Mon Oct 18, 2010 10:41 am

Jeremy


What do you mean which one?.... you make it sound like somebody makes one.... Sad

Ok ok, there is an original on e-bay.de but going for 1300+ euro is not worth it to me.

There is also an original (???) exhaust manifold for sale at around 750 euro

Just thought that I would make one myself, sort of like similar to the one on the Reila golf.

http://rheila-golf.com/tec.htm

My car will be similar to this one (this is the original and is/was for sale at an undisclosed price)

My dashboard will be very similar.

11 Re: Golf type 17 Group 4 on Mon Oct 18, 2010 10:50 am

romaingirardlamamy

avatar
Jeremy
Is the head you are taking about is the one which was on german ebay?
With no machining done just a row of the cast one??
Romain

12 Re: Golf type 17 Group 4 on Mon Oct 18, 2010 11:03 am

Jeremy


Yes that's the one.
I had only decided to go oettinger since about a month ago.
That was when I found out that it's homologated and I can enter the historic cup here in holland.

Just couldn't understand why it was never finished. But when I got it I saw that one corner where the valve cover bolts on was welded as the casting was not full. That is also why I tested it for cracks, because it will cost a bundle to complete.

And I also got a camshaft "bridge" complete with the cams. Plus the 2 motors from that guy in Norway which I all found in about a week.

Seek and ye shall find!!!

I also know of a set of 1800cc pistons... brand new for 450 euros

Most stuff can be made, just the head casting would be a bitch to copy.

Why the question? Did you buy the head that was cut up? What a shame that was, but I can understand why.

BTW i also finally recieved the distributor cap from a guy on e-bay. But the F*%^&r filed off the bosch number.



Last edited by Jeremy on Mon Oct 18, 2010 11:06 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : forgot stuff)

13 Re: Golf type 17 Group 4 on Mon Oct 18, 2010 11:49 am

romaingirardlamamy

avatar
I was looking at it and wanted to bid for it I had some sort of feeling that was a copy of an original (read it they did some new cast )
I m glad to see that you bought it
And I miss the bid on the one which was cut I would have love to have it in my hand to see how far we can go with the porting of those head
Was it the same guy from norway with the two complete engine or was it someone else?
If I m not wrong the camshaft bridge need a lot of machining too
Did you ask the guy how he got hold of those pretty rare stuffs?
When you say you know where to find the 1800cc pistons are you talking about the one fitted with the 90.5 mm stroke that was know as 1800E or the one fitted on the 86.4mm?
Did you get my reply I gave you the bosh ref

Romain

14 Re: Golf type 17 Group 4 on Mon Oct 18, 2010 1:55 pm

RubensRoc


Jeremy wrote:There is also an original (???) exhaust manifold for sale at around 750 euro

Would this be the cast manifold or 4 into 1 tube header manifold?

15 Re: Golf type 17 Group 4 on Mon Oct 18, 2010 3:56 pm

Jeremy


I did see the cap number, thank you for that, cause I don't want to deal with that guy ever again.

I got all my parts from different sellers.
I also missed the camshaft bridge on e-bay but I bought one from a dutch guy that is ready for use including the camshafts (268 degrees)

He also has the pistons for sale. (it's a dutch bidding site but i know he'll sell them for 450 maybe 400 euros cause they have been on there a while)

http://auto-onderdelen.marktplaats.nl/volkswagen-onderdelen/385173105-oettinger-16v-zuigers-nieuw.html?return=eJwtjF0KwjAQhO9SaB%2FbrgXFlCD1JiGJNjRNluwWRfHubtGn%2BeaHMQrUO6h%2BJAVHUBV5U%2Bw8zsyoum7J6FO7mrIwRmOY2hS736TFGS%2FPqKFxpDnXwwT1cHVBQDSy6CugIN0c%2FVvc015glWJK2%2BpLsGKXh9jsmUO6%2ByJBpv3n0CBuum8wE9vsvIbzCarx8wWUbTl2&df=1&fta=eNotz01uwyAQBeC7sPCascGQQb5CrxDx66I6MTIksRrl7gW7uw8eGuZpFPjOKJE8tuX61Esmqh45kn2ZoHN5KiuCchHVUvA3JpWDy%2FUmFaTqlvD%2BuPktWvXzwtWXEu%2Bz39SaI%2FZdSo%2BJdmnNxa7OT3AR0IYzJEnPnqhYx2QckER3%2FAqCIgEBklFjdxiNtkKGCgeD0a4i%2BMCEaeBsFNAiQz2XDZcwiLGBB6dbZC3ljJ0AyRtM8FK0yVJK6it44NyaExDGE3SAA8zL84aZIxq5dlAf90EPVPJj5bp9WZN2%2Bbr4%2B1y%2BWytagwuSm96vrWjt5o6mPRL9Iurrn0%2BiNFJ8fz5%2FCy12NA%3D%3D&fta_ind=5&fs=1

The exhaust manifold I mean is the 4-1 tubular, I'm not really interested in "non" race stuff.

http://cgi.ebay.de/Facherkrummer-VW-Golf-1-1-6l-16V-136PS-Oettinger-/120619636349?pt=Autoteile_Zubeh%C3%B6r&hash=item1c157d967d

The intake manifold i was talking about is not on e-bay any more.

Maybe these are interesting for someone here.

http://cgi.ebay.de/Oettinger-Tacho-Golf-1-16v-Kombi-Instrument-SELTEN-RAR-/120633278785?pt=Autoteile_Zubeh%C3%B6r&hash=item1c164dc141

http://cgi.ebay.de/Oettinger-VDO-Oeltemperaturanzeige-VW-Golf-1-2-T3-Turbo-/110598473332?pt=Autoteile_Zubeh%C3%B6r&hash=item19c02ec674

http://cgi.ebay.de/OETTINGER-Olpumpenwelle-Golf-1-2-/180574747537?pt=Autoteile_Zubeh%C3%B6r&hash=item2a0b17fb91

http://cgi.ebay.de/OETTINGER-Alu-Olpumpen-Zwischenflanch-Golf-1-2-/180574747237?pt=Autoteile_Zubeh%C3%B6r&hash=item2a0b17fa65

http://cgi.ebay.de/OETTINGER-Schriftzug-2000-E-Schwarz-/180574747487?pt=Autozubeh%C3%B6r&hash=item2a0b17fb5f

And the most interesting and expensive for last.

http://www.rallycarsforsale.net/

but you have to search for oettinger Wink it's that engine from that Gaetan dude in belgium.

16 Re: Golf type 17 Group 4 on Mon Oct 18, 2010 4:31 pm

romaingirardlamamy

avatar
Yeah gaetan hayot

He sold he s engine long time ago

And now this engine is running in group4 vhc in belgium
Retrofitted with carbs and less wild cams in a black white squetch roof mk1

His engine was 200+ bhp he now run with a two liter lehmann ex super tourism engine
Saw his car with the new engine in echdorf god ....it s quick

Should we try to recast some oettinger inlet manifold for carbs
The more we are the cheaper it could work out I m interrested and I know few other guys in there would be interested too

17 Re: Golf type 17 Group 4 on Wed Oct 27, 2010 6:08 am

Jeremy


So, after some time e-mailing with oettinger most specifically about plug wire sets as well as other parts (availablilty and info is pretty much dead) Sharon Brandimarti @ oettinger has informed me that the grommets on the wires are no longer available from their supplier, I can still buy the wires at a reduced cost (minus the expense of the grommets) and have recieved a pro-forma invoice from her.

I am undecided whether to continue with this purchase as new grommets would have been the most welcoome part off such a set.

You guys may run other calbes for racing purposes and/or different ingnition systems.

My question is what is your experience with original plug wires. Should I let this one slide in favour of a beefier custom made set?

regards,

Jeremy

18 Re: Golf type 17 Group 4 on Sat Nov 06, 2010 5:31 pm

romaingirardlamamy

avatar
Hi Jeremy

yeah you could just make your own HT leads
like we said last time MSD does DIY kit
I think the 16 valves KR type should fit you just have to put new ends on it

19 Re: Golf type 17 Group 4 on Sun Nov 14, 2010 9:41 pm

RubensRoc


There are better wires today than what Oettinger supplied 28 years ago. Making your own set would be better and less expensive.

~Ruben

20 Re: Golf type 17 Group 4 on Sun Nov 14, 2010 11:47 pm

FlugGTI


I used 8.5mm core MSD do-it-yourself kit, and they work pretty well. I cut up my old "grommets" from my old wires and slipped them over these....which works 'okay'...I found a place that had custom grommets once but I can't remember where I saved the link...

21 Re: Golf type 17 Group 4 on Sat Nov 27, 2010 10:58 am

Jeremy


Thanks for the replies! I didn't order them from oettinger as they couldn't make complete sets anymore. (they can't get the grommets that are on the wires)

22 Re: Golf type 17 Group 4 on Sat Nov 27, 2010 11:10 am

Billb


Hey guy, look at this, it could have some interest for you.

http://www.mikadoracing.com/annonces/recherche_avancee.php?saisie=10

23 Re: Golf type 17 Group 4 on Wed Dec 29, 2010 5:50 pm

Jeremy


Hey Bilb, very cool! did find something of some value. (and that with my half ass french!)


Today got back from Norway from fetching the oettinger stuff (2 engines) but seems to be in loose parts.
It was a 4000km trip which we did in 4 days (Norwegian roads are 80km/h max)
So very slow going through the mountains, lot's of ice and snow. The temperature even got down to a balmy -28 C!!!
But we drove up there in my buddies brand new T5 transporter which did the trick.

On arrival at the guys garage which was in actual fact an old hen-house (very big) and heating the lock to get the garage open a true treasure trove came to light. A mk1 caddy (where a Seat ABF with 2Y will be installed, which was my spare for my golf as a part of the deal for the oettinger parts) 2 golf rallyes both converted to haldex one VR6 Turbo (650HP)and the other a standard trim VR6 a mk1 golf which is being built up for a wedding and a Ford sierra cosworth being converted to 4x4.

The guy also had a A6 2.5 TDI Avant as a daily driver and another Audi RS2 in the garage at home... all in all a very nice collection indeed.

Tomorrow I am going to unpack the van and make a comprehensive inventory of exactly what I got cause it was quite a lot of stuff and only looked at the bigger parts... although some parts where missing which he says will send up later...

Some parts will not be of any use to me so I will post pics later and if you need something just give me a shout!

24 Re: Golf type 17 Group 4 on Thu Dec 30, 2010 1:22 pm

Jeremy


So here are the pics of the stuff i bought, 2 engines but deffinitly not not complete... Crying or Very sad
However enough stuff to make what I want exept for 1600 pistons

Desparatly in need of 1600cc pistons, willing to trade parts or buy outright.
Does anybody know where I could get a set?
Are the originals from MAHLE? maybe I could get them to make a set for me... or dare I say it, ask oettinger again for parts.... Rolling Eyes

Here are the pics













EV block which would be correct type but according to the guy I bought it from needs to be honed or maybe even redrilled which would require over sized pistons. the crank and pistons above came from this block I will have to check that out



KR block which obviously is not correct, and not even the right pistons installed... and guess what.



Yep, valves came into contact with the pistons. why people try to do these things is beyond me...



As I won't be needing a bunch of this stuff as I have to build it to spec hit me up if there is anything you need.

25 Re: Golf type 17 Group 4 on Thu Dec 30, 2010 4:03 pm

romaingirardlamamy

avatar
Hi jeremy

Well look at the bright side you got yourself two head which is pretty good

Just a couple off thing

If I understood well in gr4 you got to stick with the engine dimension they had at the time 1.6 79.5x80 right???

Well I m sorry the block you will need is a EG block

You could use the later 1.6 crank which is I think 74mm with much bigger bore

And does your head cover the second smaller drain between cyl 1 and 2
Could you take a picture of your head on the combustion chamber side
if not you ll have to block that appart if you use an early block

For the piston I believe they are still dispos in oettinger but they won't have the rings for it and I confirm they are mahle pistons

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